Main Street Makers

#23 Levi King: Using business credit to go from electric signs to Silicon Valley

• Nav • Episode 23

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In this episode, Nav’s CEO and co-founder Levi King shares his extensive small business experience, detailing how he built his first business from scratch and the critical role that business credit played in his success. He discusses the challenges he faced, including navigating business credit issues after acquiring a company with a poor credit history. Learn the importance of adapting to technological advancements and the evolving landscape of business credit.

Nav Technologies, Inc. (“Nav”) makes no assurances or representations regarding the accuracy or sufficiency of the information included in this podcast. This podcast is for educational purposes only, and is not legal or financial advice. If you have questions, consult a trusted professional to help you make specific decisions about your business. The views, opinions, and statements expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of Nav.

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Levi King (00:00)

I was proud that I paid cash for everything. That was how I was raised — credit’s bad, never, never get financing, never get credit.


I realized quick that the more access to trade credit that I had with tons of suppliers, that then that would make it a lot easier to float that extra 30 to 40 % of costs until you would invoice, because then you invoice when the job's done, and I had to offer net 30, sometimes net 60 or net 90 just to win the job. So then I'm waiting to get paid, right? But I've laid money out to get to that point. So without trade credit, I couldn't have grown as fast as I did those first few years because I was always super rich in my accounts receivable and broke in my bank account. And it was like solid accounts receivable. Like these are real companies that owed me money they were gonna pay, but it was always hairy. But trade credit's what even made that possible.


Catherine Giese (00:52)

Welcome to Main Street Makers, a bi-weekly podcast that features real local small business owners who have transformed their passions into profitable businesses. Learn from fellow small business owners on how they overcome challenges, find opportunities, and create thriving operations that make our neighborhoods more vibrant, connected places to live. I'm Catherine, and this podcast is brought to you by Nav, the business credit platform that believes every small business owner deserves the chance to succeed.


Now let's get to this week's show.


Catherine Giese (01:20)

Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of Main Street Makers. We have a very special guest today, someone with decades of deep knowledge and experience owning and operating businesses who has become an expert in all things business credit along the way. I'm really happy to welcome Levi King, serial entrepreneur and co-founder and CEO of Nav to the pod. Thanks for being here.


Levi King (01:41)

Yeah, you're welcome. This is a fun one. First one I've done for a company I started.


Catherine Giese (01:43)

Hahaha


Love it, that's amazing. So the first thing I'd love to do is just have you rattle off your background and all of the businesses that you've started so that we can kind of get a sense of who you are and where you come from.


Levi King (02:00)

You bet. I got a job a long time ago when I was 20 or 21 or something like that at an electric sign company and I was on the installation crew and I had been expelled from one university and enrolled at another university, but I hadn't started yet and I needed this job to put myself through college and The owner of the business after relatively short period of time he knew that I was gonna go from full-time to part-time


And he asked me, said, hey, I know you said you're studying business management. When you're done with college, what do you want to do? And I said, I don't know. I just know I want to own my own, my own business. And he said, well, if he's like, you're, you're smarter than the average person that I employ and you work harder than the average person I employ. If you'll stick around here for another year, I'll teach you how this works. As long as you leave the state, I don't want to compete with you. And I said, sure. And so he mentored me for the next year or so. And I left the state.


and got a job at another sign company while I got my journeyman electrician license and my contractor's license. And I went to the owner of that business once I got my licensing and said, Hey, I want to start my own sign company. I was so naive. I want to start my own side company. so, so I want to go part time. I'll work Monday, Wednesday and Friday. And then I thought the other days I'll run my business even on weekends. And he's like, okay. So I get like the printed


Magnet for the side of the truck, King Electric Signs. And you know, I put them on the truck on my off days, peel them off before I drove to work on the days I went into the Golden West advertising. And after just a couple weeks, and then I would cold call. it's just a, I had a ladder, bag of tools, and a crappy old truck. I'd drive around at night, look for signs that were burned out, and then I would cold call the next day and say, hey, I'll fix your sign for less. It was like a very simple pitch. The Electric Sign companies were charging 90 bucks an hour. I offered to it for 45.


And just like the second or third weekend, like I know, I remember he said it was a Saturday. Somebody from the company spotted me fixing an electric sign with this King Electric signs on my truck. And he calls me back into his office, like in front of everybody, like the whole front office, not like the, the, all the, ⁓ like sheet metal and kind of more blue color folks that worked in the back. And he's like, so and so said, they saw you fixing a sign on the weekend and it said King Electric signs on your truck. And I said, yeah, like


A couple weeks ago I told you I wanted to go to part time because I wanted to start my own company. And then he goes, how old are you? I'm like, whatever I answer. He's like, I didn't think you were serious. I thought you were going to go find out you can't start a company like this. And then you asked to go full time. He's like, you're fired. He's like yelling at me in front of everybody. And I was like shocked. like, in my head I was like, I'm not competition. Like I just got a pickup truck. He has like crane, like boom trucks and full manufacturing capabilities. And so I was just confused. But now I realize I was just naive, right?


He did servicing and so that's a sign he could have fixed, right? His company could have fixed. So he fired me. I'm pretty sure it's the only, now I've been fired one other time before that. ⁓ And it was like sink or swim. Cause I was like, I'd penciled it out to where between my wife's job and my job, we could pay our bills if I made no money. And that broke big time without me having a job. Cause I made hourly a lot more than she made hourly. And so it was like true sink or swim. And ⁓


I kept cold calling and fixing signs and I profited a little over 8,000 bucks my first month and put that 8,000 into a crappy old boom truck that would get me up 80 feet in the air so I wasn't constrained to what I could reach with the ladder. And then I got in the installation business. There's a lot of like McDonald's, they don't manufacture signs locally. They have one big company that does nationally and then they ship those in and hire someone like me to put up the signs. So I had like a gas station account. I didn't actually have the McDonald's account.


But I had accounts like that that I got over time that was just installation. And then I, I, I partnered with this 52 year old second generation, ne'er do well, uh, owner of a sign company that had nothing going on. So had all the equipment, but he just, he didn't have any employees. were like contractors. If he got a job. I said, Hey, why don't I sell electric signs wholesale but you manufacture them for me. And since he was desperate for work, he would do it for wholesale so I could still have a margin. And of course,


the installation that was my profits exclusively. So we did that for about a year. And then I just said, hey, why don't I buy this from you? Because I ended up being the only work he had and he got a lot of work. And he said, okay, so we haggled and I didn't have any money. I paid him, I put like 20 or $40,000 down, but it was 200,000 purchase price. I put that money down and he carried the note. So it was a seller carry transaction. And then I just paid him off over time. But that's how over just.


a couple of years I went from charging people 45 bucks an hour to fix signs with almost no equipment to being full manufacturing capabilities, installation and servicing. And I think by the third year we did about 3 million in revenues. Profit margin in that business was like 10%. So I felt like I'd made it. Like age 24, 25, however old I was, I got to where a lot of people spent years and years trying to get to.


So that was the first one. And then there's four more small businesses after that and a couple tech companies.


Catherine Giese (07:25)

Yeah, that's amazing. ⁓ I love that story so much. I'm curious, you you started with a truck and a ladder basically, and then you ended up scaling to be the main service provider and have all of these other capabilities. Well, how did you kind of hustle in those very first months to build up your customer base?


Levi King (07:52)

I figured out fast, the left brain in me that revenues solve all problems in business. That's not true in life. It's not even close to true in life. It's like in a marriage, right? Money doesn't solve all your problems, but ⁓ in business it does. And so was just, my confidence built every day. Every time someone would call me back, and plenty of people said, no, beat it, not gonna talk to you. But every time someone said yes, and then those numbers got bigger and bigger, then my confidence built over time.


Um, so that, that was really the first year the confidence just kept building. Like I, I went from billing like $400 jobs to, fixed an electric sign for Brunei tire company and I called and I talked to the owner. He had like nine locations in Idaho, a couple in Oregon or Washington. And, uh, he, he's like, you can, you can come out and try to fix that sign, but if you don't fix it, I'm not paying you. I was like, that's kind of weird. Like, of course, why would I charge you if I can't fix it?


And I fixed the sign and I kind of lucked out because a wire was broken inside of the plastic casing and I noticed that the indicator it blinked. And so I like went back and forth. Usually when that happens, it burns it out. So it's really easy to see like, that's the problem. And so I fixed the sign and I built it was like 200 bucks or something. And he's like, I don't believe you that is fixed. I'll go by and check tonight. And so he went by and check, check that night.


He called me into his office and he's like, how'd you fix that? And I'm like, ⁓ was honest. I'm like, well, I just got lucky. Usually these things burn out and this wire was broken inside of the plastic. And he said, hey, you know, I'm rebranding. So not the Brunel tire, but he was gonna call it Brunel tire factory. He said, I need new, I need to reskin my awnings, reskin my signs at all nine locations. He's like, would you like to the job? And I was like, sure, of course, right? And was actually, first he said the signs.


So I came back with a bid with the signs and he's like, Oh, I forgot to tell you the awnings. He's like, do you do awnings and then like pure fake it till you make it fashion? I'm like, of course I do. And in my head I was like, well, I know sign companies make awnings. I'm going to have to figure this one out. But that was like half of the job, like as far as from a revenue perspective. And so there's a quarter million dollar job. He wrote me a check for $125,000. Then I like, I almost like I sat in my truck and just looked at it. Like I couldn't wrap my head around a check of that size.


put up my checking account, of course that all had to go into the job. And that job really put me in business. I mean, I was already in business, but that job allowed me to buy another boom truck, 30 foot flatbed trailer, scissor lift. And so I'm always grateful to that Craig Bruniel. So it was just bit by bit, winning one job after another and then building a reputation. And my thing was, I...


I to respond to calls 24 seven, weekends and everything. No companies did that. And so, like a real example, and one we'll probably get to later, is the Idaho Center Auto Mall. They had a grand opening or something and one of the signs wasn't working. So on a Saturday night I get a call, I'm like, yep, I'll head right over. And then I got all their service business from then on out. And so then the word spreads and you get more and more business.


But yeah, that was the early years. to be clear, I was scared to death all the time. Every month I was scared, we're have enough work. Then I started hiring people and that ratcheted up the pressure. And all my peers were guys with white hair. And so I was definitely an anomaly in this little, like electric sign is not like a huge industry. There's like five companies in all of Idaho and I was one of them. And so yeah, those early years were just, they were crazy.


Catherine Giese (11:28)

Yeah, just saying yes to everything and doing a good job and showing up is kind of how that worked out for


you've also, yeah. So you've also stated that business credit was like a lifeline or a safety net for you in many cases. ⁓ And you have a story about the first time you were introduced to business credit and how it was basically based on a handshake. And I'd love for you to just tell us that story.


Levi King (11:34)

And doing good work, yep.


Yes, so at the time in Boise, Idaho, there were two wholesale electric sign suppliers. So there's a lot of specialty things you buy that aren't for sale at like Graco Electric or Home Depot's electric section. And I don't remember which one it was and I would buy from either one depending on who had the better price. But after months of taking a blank check and looking at the bill and handing him a check, I can't remember who it was, but I remember he said, “Hey, this is annoying to us. Nobody pays when they walk in.”


Then he's like, “I gotta go to the bank. I'd rather we invoice you. Because then it goes to  someone who actually is in charge of this stuff.” He's like, “Can we just give you credit terms?” And I'm like, “Sure”. And he's like, “All right, next time you come in, I'll tell you what terms we can give you.” And so I come in and he's like, “Man, you have no business credit.” 


And I was proud that I paid cash for everything. That was how I was raised — credit’s bad, never, never get financing, never get credit. And he's like, “Look, you got no credit, but I'll give you some, I'll give it to you on a handshake. And we know you pay us when you're here, so we're assuming you're gonna pay us when we mail the invoice to your office.” 


And then that's how it started. And then of course they started to report and I'm like, okay, well this really helps with cash flow, right? Because on like that $250,000 job, they gave me $125,000 down, but my hard costs were probably.


on that job maybe 70%. And so it's this weird relationship with a customer where they hand you the check, they're a creditor to me, like I owe them, right? Because they gave me money, but I haven't given them anything in return. And then once I crossed the 50% cost line, now I'm a creditor to them. So it's like, that kind of like blew my mind, that he's like, wait a second, they're a lender and now I'm a lender. And so I realized quick that the more access to trade credit that I had with my concrete supplier, steel supplier, plastic supplier, oxy-acetylene supplier — like you get tons of suppliers, you buy from more equipment, rental supplier — that then that would make it a lot easier to float that extra 30 to 40% of costs until you would invoice. Because then you invoice when the job's done, and I had to offer net-30, sometimes net-60 or net-90 just to win the job. So then I'm waiting to get paid, right? 


But I've laid money out to get to that point. So trade credit… without trade credit, I couldn't have grown as fast as I did those first few years because I was always super rich in my accounts receivable and broke in my bank account. And it was like solid accounts receivable. Like these are real companies that owed me money, they were gonna pay, but it was always hairy. But trade credit's what even made that possible.


Catherine Giese (14:35)

Yeah, I love this story so much because I think that a lot of the discourse online, at least around business credit, has to do with traditional financing or it's hyper-focused on the score. And this is really a wonderful way for us to see how you can actually use credit to stretch your cash flow and as a tool that is really relevant to your business.


Levi King (14:54)

Way easier to get access to large dollar amounts. Like by this point, I had like a $25,000 line of credit with the bank and access to like a quarter million dollars in trade credit. So it wasn't even close. Like it's so hard to get financing that will equal what you could get in trade credit between all of your different vendors and suppliers.


Catherine Giese (15:13)

Right, yeah. On this note, a lot of people don't realize that businesses have credit separate from individuals who have credit. And when you buy a business, you also buy that credit profile. Can you talk to us about your experience with that?


Levi King (15:30)

Yeah, yeah, that was a painful lesson. So, you know, through this journey I've already shared, I got to understand at least Dun & Bradstreet along the way. I also for different reasons figured out Experian had a business credit report and Equifax had a business credit report. Those reports trip me up in other ways beyond trade credit. ⁓ But I knew I had rock solid ⁓ DMV profile by this point. So this auto mall that I mentioned before I won the servicing business and that's how they knew to call me, I had bid.


It was a brand new Idaho Center, Auto Mall in Napa, Idaho, where all these dealers that are competitors come in and they go together on the overhead of like an auto mall. And so there's certain costs they share. And of course you're hoping people come by a Chevy, not the Dodge, who's your competitor next door. And it was like a, it was like a $300,000, was multi a thousand dollar job. And I knew I had the best price and I was literally down the road. My company was within a mile of this location and there's like this big do business locally mentality. And I'm like,


I'm the only sign company in Nampa, the rest are in Boise, like do business with me. And I didn't get, I didn't win it. And so I went and talked to the guy who's employed at like the umbrella over overall who runs their advertising. He's like the sixty year old guy, you know, and I'm a kid. And so I'm like, I just expressed the disappointment. I'm like, “Hey, I know I had a better, a better price. I'm local. Like I know these dealers. Some of them give me business here and there. Like, why didn't I, like, why didn't you give me a shot?”


And he's like, it was like a grandpa moment. He didn't like put his arm around me, but it was like one of those moments like, come here little one, my young Padawan, let me show you something. And he opens a folder that says King Electric signs and there was my proposal in there. He flips back and he has a copy of my Dun & Bradstreet business credit report. Then it had tax liens, collections, like late payments everywhere. And I was like, this isn't, this isn't my credit. Like something's wrong. And he's like, this is what we found, you know, and like, can't blame him, right?


And so that's when I learned that because I bought this company that had been in 52 years in business by a second generation ne'er-do-well, guess what? He wasn't paying his bills on time. He had liens on that business left and right, collections. ⁓ And so our business credit reports got merged because when I bought his business, I even did it the right way, which is you do an asset purchase, you don't buy the actual legal entity, but I bought the name of the business and I attached that to my corporation as a doing business as or assumed business name.


he had a few accounts that were going to come in under, know, and I need to be able to cash those checks. And so that simple mistake or, or be not understanding all of that. I inherited all of that stuff and it took some time, but I did, I had to like prove to Dun & Brass Street that I didn't buy the legal entity that I just bought the name. And eventually I got it sorted out, but it was, it was months of work before, and then sometimes it would pop back like one or two things would pop back up. So it actually gave me a little misery for a period of time, but that's how I learned.


customers will pull your credit because they're gonna be a creditor to you on the job.


Catherine Giese (18:33)

Yeah, ⁓ I think this one is really interesting from like two perspectives because there's obviously like the whole aspect of ⁓ you lost a contract and for reasons like outside your control, but I'm also thinking, you know, lot of people want to go and sell their businesses. I would imagine that having a strong business credit profile could make that business more valuable than one that doesn't have a strong credit profile. Is that the case?


Levi King (19:01)

That's right. And it's not just true in industries like private industries, business to business, it's true in business to government. So in almost every type of municipality from federal, state, county, city, if you want to contract like to clean your janitorial service, and you want to city hall, or you want to do the land, you want to the lawns, city hall, they're usually going to check your credit. Or if you have your widget, you convinced Walmart to put it on their shelves, Walmart...


doesn't just check your credit, they stay on top of your credit. And least last time I checked, if your paydex score drops below 80, you get a notice. It's like you got 30 days, 60 days, whatever it is, and you better get your score up or we're pulling your products from our shelves because they need reliable suppliers, right? They don't want to their customer that's used to buying this widget comes like, where is it? ⁓ our supplier isn't on solid enough financial footing to be able to be consistent. They don't want empty space on their shelves. It's like retailer 101.


So yeah, there's just other verticals where your credit gets pulled. But that's not just B2B, it's B2G and ⁓ Fortune 1000 for sure if you're doing business with a Fortune 1000 company.


Catherine Giese (20:10)

Right. And I think it's pretty well documented and understood, like what ⁓ financial institutions are looking at when they look at your business credit. Can you ⁓ tell us a little more about that, you know, the Walmart situation, for example, like why are they looking for a strong business credit score? Like what are they looking in the profile ⁓ that makes them decide if you're like a reliable supplier or not?


Levi King (20:36)

In that case, they're looking at overall global credit health. know, real example, my co-founder at Katen, ⁓ his father-in-law invented the first, do you remember the portable hotspots, like Wi-Fi hotspots, now we can all do it with our phone, but way back when, like that was hot stuff for people that traveled. And his dad brought the first one to market and got Walmart as a customer. And this was before we started Nav, if I remember right.


But he's like, hey, can you talk to my father-in-law? And I got on the phone with him and he's like, I got Walmart. It's like 80 % of our revenues. And I just got this letter that they're going to pull our product from their cell, you know, from the cell phone part of their store. ⁓ If we don't get our score up in however long, I don't remember the details. And so I'm like, okay, here's what you do. You got a call down at Bradstreet, they have a Concierge product. They're probably going to try to sell it to you for 20 grand, but you can get them down to like five grand. They'll wheel and deal on it. So like pay five grand. He's like, you know, and he had millions in revenues.


And so he did call D&B and got that concierge service. And then he was able to manually supply like more information so that they could see like, okay, you should have a better score. And then I talked to him later and I was like, how'd it work out? He's like, it worked out perfect. And now I stay on top of it. And I'm like, what'd you pay? He's like 20 grand. I'm like, I told you, you could get it for five. He's like, I didn't care. It's millions of revenues. I'd have to pay whatever I had to, stay on this shelves of Walmart. And I was like, yeah, that makes sense.


Catherine Giese (22:01)

Yeah, that's a really crazy story. I didn't know anything about that part of things. I think that's valuable for people. Switching gears a little bit. So we talked a lot about business credit and small business. You've also been now a two time Silicon Valley founder in the sense that you started tech companies that are VC backed. And I have two parts of this question. So I'll lay them out, but then I'll just ask you the first part. So what are some lessons that you've taken from small business into Silicon Valley? And then my follow up will be about lessons.


from tech that small business owners can learn. So let's start with the first one. What are some lessons from running a small business that you've brought into the tech world?


Levi King (22:36)

Yeah, so going from small business to tech, the first part of the ⁓ answer is probably kind of simple, which is, you know, so many people that started venture-backed business, like, they've never made payroll. They've never signed up for accounting. They've never paid payroll taxes, or they don't know what legal differences between legal entities. And so there's a steep learning curve on becoming a tech entrepreneur that has nothing to do with tech. It just has to do with what are the nuts and bolts of running a business? ⁓ What are employment laws?


How do you, and how does that vary by state? There's just a million things you gotta pick up over time or hire expensive advice to help you understand and navigate that it has nothing to do with finding product, fit. And so I was fortunate, having started all those businesses, like, okay, nuts and bolts, easy. Like, I already got all that. And then the other thing that I think I took into it was just, by then I did not start off as a great people leader or a great manager. And...


I went through some painful lessons as a small business owner to get to work on it. you work here, I hope you think I'm okay, but I certainly would say I'm not shitty like I was for a long time, but I fancied myself to be good at it. And so it took a 360 feedback with a company, different small business I owned with like 100 employees that were, it was anonymous and I got eaten alive. I was embarrassed, like I did soul searching on.


how poorly I communicated and things like that. And it was maybe up to that point in my life, the most important learning ⁓ moment that I had because at first I thought like, they're all idiots. Like that's why I'm CEO, because they're dumb and I'm not, right? That's the natural human instinct is you don't, you want to look inward, you want to look outward. And after sitting on it for a few days, I just had a moment of truth and I'm like, and I remember I was 26 years old, because it hit me like I'm 26.


Like they can't all be wrong. And a lot of them were friends that I'd recruited to work for me. And I said, so like they have to be right. And I got to figure this out where I peaked. And that idea that at age 26, I peaked as a leader, it actually terrified me. was like, holy cow, like people, hopefully you don't peak till you're like in your 60s or something, maybe stretch into your 70s. I'm like, I'm 26. Like that's a horrible age to peak at as a leader. And so I went down this whole rabbit hole of studying and learning about brain science and personality types and stuff so I could improve.


But I brought all of that in with me to to being a tech founder. I like I was a decent leader by then I understood by then mission vision values like My number one mission when I started my first company was I don't want to be poor That was it. That was my sole driver is I did not want to be poor and then eventually once I was successful Financially, I wasn't happy like I didn't love the business I was in and that's when I realized like okay success


is not as narrowly defined as I had defined it based on how I grew up. It's like, no, you gotta be happy too. And so I brought all of that with me into tech. you know, and the funny thing is like, VCs actually saw that and appreciated it. then on the other side, I remember when I did taxes my first year at the sign company, like my wife and I spent a whole weekend


with receipts spread out across the living room floor and the couches and the table. And it was a nightmare. We got them organized. like, I was literally like the shoe box person that comes in to the accountant. he's like, I'll do your taxes. But if you don't buy QuickBooks and hire a bookkeeper, because I don't trust you to actually maintain QuickBooks, I won't do your taxes next year. And so I went to Costco. Right back then there was no.


QuickBooks Online, I bought the CD, put it on the computer and put it on your machine and I hired Loretta. It wasn't a full-time job but she was full-time so she was my first office manager but her background was bookkeeping. But I logged into QuickBooks one time and then fast forward to the early days of Lend.io. Carly and our VP of Finance were like, hey, there's this QuickBooks Online, do you care if we switch? I'm like.


It's online now? Wow, no way. Like yeah, let's do it. And then I'm like, hey, I want to log in credentials. I want to check this out. And I logged in one time and I'm like, ugh, I don't have time for this. And so I've logged into QuickBooks twice in my life, once on desktop and one online, and that was it. And you so you hired people to do things that you either weren't good at or just didn't have interest in getting good at. Like I'm sure I could be an excellent QuickBook user, but I just wasn't interested in it. And...


So much has changed, like ⁓ invoicing. Like I had this, like at that first company, had the generic pad I bought from Staples or Office Depot. Like I'd stamp my name at the top, know, so I had like the old school stamp, hit the ink and then stamp, and then you'd fill it out by hand, you got your carbon copies. You know, think of the invoicing tools we have today that are digital, native to whatever vertical SaaS product you use. And so so much of...


of the things that I had to hire people to do now, you don't. You just need to use the right software, and that can be your accounting platform, that can be your CRM, right? It can be the operating system that you use in enterprise SaaS. And that's, think most small business owners today, they're learning those things, right? Like payroll, we used to run manually. like Loretta knew how to do it. I don't even know how she did it. We paid quarterly taxes. I don't even know how she did it.


And now that's all automated, like with Gusto, so much of this stuff is automated. And I think small business owners get that, but I think even reflecting myself as CEO of Nav today with everything that's changing with AI, I'm like, I could become a dinosaur as a CEO. And as a CEO, in a company at this stage with the talent that we have, and this will sound silly to you for sure, and hopefully you don't think less of me, but I don't actually do any work.


I don't produce anything. All I do is talk in writing or with my voice and that's it. I was far enough along when I started Nav, I didn't even design the deck. I paid someone to do my deck, so any of my design skills were nothing. And so, as a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of a couple hundred people, a mature executive team like we have at Nav, but now with AI, you can do so much more with less. So for those small business owners that are like, hey, I...


I did learn QuickBooks, don't love it, or maybe they do. Now there's competitors that are fully AI, native AI solutions. ⁓ Payroll, like with Gusto, it's drop dead simple. Like I wouldn't have needed to hire Loretta. Now she was an office manager too, and I was probably about to the point I needed an office manager. ⁓ But even that might not be true, right? Inventory control systems now that are AI native, like that was one of the things Loretta had to do, was like stay on top of.


cost a good sold and do we order the right amount of plastic so that we don't have a lower margin on a job? And I think any small business owners over the age of, I don't know, 30 but 40 for sure, especially if you're already successful, you know what to do. But as the world changes, if you don't keep up, you're slipping behind, right? There's no such thing as like you plateau and you just hang out on that plateau, maybe briefly, but you're either kind of going up or you're kind of going down in a small business. And so...


That's a lesson I had to learn in tech. Because if you think of when I first got into tech, was no, like social wasn't a thing. Like nobody was advertising yet on Facebook. like the cloud wasn't what it is today. So there's been lots of changes on the tech side that like if I hadn't kept up, I'd be a dinosaur, right? Even when we started Nav,


AWS was in its infancy and because we sit on PII, we had all these like hard security requirements. And so we, here in Utah, happened to be in Utah for this, there's these, I think for like C7 data setters or something that are like nuclear proof. Like we had to pay for servers in a nuclear proof facility and like one person had access and like these crazy rules that were expensive.


You know, when AWS came along, at least according to the AWS folks we worked with, they told us we were the first company in the United States to have PII in the cloud. And that was actually, took some wheel in the deal with the credit bureaus because they're like, no, this AWS thing, like, no, we need you in that nuclear proof facility. But we did that a long time ago. so, so kind of those lessons of like, you got to stay ahead of the tech curve. ⁓ If I hadn't.


I mean, and now I'm right back in the middle of that, right? If I don't figure out how do I become a better CEO using AI and for sure my company using AI, then we're going to become a dinosaur too. So I don't know. guess that's the lesson for small business owners. Like AI makes it way easier to become a wannabe technologist than before AI. So if you're, you know, a bakery and your passion's baking, like I could see why you wouldn't like to spend a lot of time at a computer.


or on your smartphone or whatever, but now it's easier than ever using AI to become, call it a wannabe pseudo technologist, whatever, but that's what AI is doing for people is making people tech experts that don't have to spend hours, months getting certifications and everything else that you historically have had to use to say like, okay, I'm a certified tech expert.


Catherine Giese (32:17)

Yeah, I love that. There's so much richness there and how the two worlds are kind of collapsing more and more than ever because there's so many more tech tools that enable small business owners to act like tech companies. And kind of on the flip side, I feel like a big trend in Silicon Valley has been more towards profitability and running sustainably, which is a skill that small business owners are very, good at. So I love your perspective on that. Well, thank you so much for joining. This was really amazing.


think that there's a lot here for people to learn from. So thank you.


Levi King (32:50)

Anytime. Thanks, Catherine.


Catherine Giese (32:52)

Thank you to our guests for sharing their story and thank you for listening today. Keep in mind that every small business is unique and there is no such thing as one size fits all advice. So only take what you find helpful. We look forward to next time.