#14 Gerri Detweiler: Bouncing back from business identity theft (and tips to avoid it)

In this eye-opening episode, credit expert Gerri Detweiler offers lessons from when her personal and business identities were stolen simultaneously. Discover the financial (and emotional) impacts of having one's identity stolen — as well as practical identity theft protection tips. Plus, learn how personal credit can affect your business, why business credit matters, and steps you can start taking to build it today.

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Net-30 accounts to apply for: https://www.nav.com/resource/net-30-accounts/

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Transcript

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Gerri (00:00)

Business identity theft can be easier than personal identity theft. I'm not saying there's not security of business credit, but anyone could purchase a business credit report on my business, on your business, anyone's business, right? So that means the accessibility is there.

A lot of business owners I talk to don't even know that business credit is a thing. They certainly are not aware that business identity theft is a problem and a growing problem.

It's just another reminder that monitoring credit is really important. It's one of the few steps on the business credit side that can at least help alert you to unusual activities so you can act quickly.

Tiffany (00:42)

Welcome to Main Street Makers, a bi-weekly podcast that features real local small business owners who have transformed their passions into profitable businesses.

Learn from fellow small business owners on how they overcome challenges, find opportunities, and create thriving operations that make our neighborhoods more vibrant, connected places to live. I'm Tiffany, and this podcast is brought to you by Nav, the business credit platform that believes every small business owner deserves the chance to succeed. Now, let's get to this week's show.

Tiffany (01:11)

Hey and welcome to Main Street Makers. We are honored to have Gerri Detweiler here with us, who is a credit expert. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Also you work at Nav. So you're our Education Consultant here. And we really wanted to talk to you because you are a credit expert and you had your business identity stolen, right?

Gerri (01:21)

Thank you.

Yes, I actually had my personal and business identity stolen at the same time.

Tiffany (01:46)

Wow, okay, I didn't actually realize it was both.

Boy, so what happened?

Gerri (01:55)

Well, I actually pulled out my police report to remind myself of what it was like. And this was December 20th, 2020 when this came to my attention. So imagine this, it's the pandemic. It's been an incredibly stressful year. I was working full time for Nav at the time and we had spent seven days a week trying to help people navigate the different types of financial aid that were available to business owners. So it was a very, very difficult, stressful time. And I get credit alert because I do monitor my credit, thank you, Nav. And I saw that Citibank had placed an inquiry on my personal credit report. So I'm, hmm, I didn't apply for anything with Citibank. So I contacted Citibank and sure enough, someone had filled out a credit application in my name. And so that led from one thing to another. My credit report was the biggest clue at this point into what was going on.

But as it turned out, they not only tried to get a credit card in my name, they also opened two bank accounts and applied for unemployment in my name — even though I was full-time gainfully employed at Nav at the time. 

And then it was after that that some business credit inquiries popped up, leading me to realize that they had also tried to compromise my business. 

If you remember, you know, at that time in the winter of 2020, a lot of pandemic aid was available, whether it was PPP or the Economic Injury Disaster Loan, EIDL. And so there was a lot of fraud that happened at that time. And largely as it was, you know, as a result of the money that was just floating around that everyone was trying to grab. So some business owners tried to defraud the system, but others tried to use other people like me to defraud the system.

Tiffany (03:57)

Yeah that is really crazy that that happened. And so how did it get resolved, if it did?

Gerri (04:07)

It did get resolved as far as I know. There were a few steps that I took right away. 

First of all, I did contact all the companies that showed inquiries on my credit reports that I didn't recognize. Now, this is easier said than done. Believe me, it's not always easy because when you go into a phone tree on a lender's website, they usually want you to put in an account number or identification. I hadn't applied for credit, right? There were a few where it was very stressful trying to get ahold of someone to talk to them. 

One bank in particular seemed very eager to learn as much as possible about what was happening. The thieves had actually successfully opened a bank account. They had applied for unemployment, and an unemployment check had been deposited into that account, but they hadn't yet accessed it. So I caught it very quickly, which was a huge blessing.

Also at that time there was a lot of identity theft going on and if you had gotten unemployment funds, you know, incorrectly or fraudulently, it was impossible to get a hold of anyone at the unemployment. It was just literally impossible. So I'm thankful I caught it before the money left that bank account. So it went back to the state. I didn't have to worry about that. 

But the other thing I did was I did get a police report — and I highly recommend that for someone who is a victim of identity theft because that police report adds a certain gravitas to any future complaints that you make. 

And then I also filed a fraud alert on my credit reports. Now since then I have frozen my credit reports but at the time because I monitor my credit so closely I wasn't too terribly worried about freezing them but I did place a fraud alert. And this worked really well because about two or three months after this I was at a car dealership buying a car and they offered me a deal where if I got their financing I'd get some kind of a rebate. And so I said yes.

I'm sitting there and my cell phone rings and the guy in front of me says, answer it. So I don't recognize the number, I answer it. And it's the manager from the finance department at the car dealership who's calling to verify that it's me. And he says, turn around, wave, so I know it's you. So it did work very well in terms of preventing any other immediate applications into my credit. But since then, I've just decided it's easier to freeze it and unfreeze it when I need to apply for credit.

Tiffany (06:46)

And is freezing something you can do with business credit?

Gerri (06:49)

No, it's not, unfortunately. So you can file a fraud alert with Experian to let them know what's going on. But generally, your best defense right now with business credit is to monitor your business credit to see if you see any unusual activity. 

And that's not the easiest thing to do in the conventional sense because they're certainly… they're independent entities, right? It’s Equifax, Experian, in this case Dun & Bradstreet for business credit, or TransUnion for personal credit. They're all individual companies. They don't share information unless they have to by law. 

But I think even with business credits, even more challenging because business credit reports tend to be more expensive when you go directly to the bureau than personal credit, which you get for free at least once a year. And so it's a little bit trickier prospect. Of course, we haven't talked about my background, but that's what drew me to Nav in the first place. And what keeps me at Nav is this ability to help business owners see what's going on in one simple dashboard.

Tiffany (08:00)

Yeah. So how common — and we will talk about your background — but how common is identity theft, specifically business identity theft?

Gerri (08:12)

I dove into that topic quite a bit around the time that this happened to me and these numbers were pretty alarming. There was a huge increase in business identity theft around 2020 and a number of organizations have reported on it. National Cyber Security Society, the IRS has reported on it, Krebs on Security, one of the leading security blogs. I haven't seen as much updated information recently. 

However, I can't imagine it's suddenly going down dramatically. Because what I learned in my research is that in some ways business identity theft can be easier than personal identity theft because credit reports are so protected, right? They're protected under a federal law, the Fair Credit Reporting Act. There's high, high security. 

I'm not saying there's no security of business credit, but anyone could purchase a business credit report on my business, on your business, anyone's business, right? So that means the accessibility is there. And the other potential hole is that some of the states make it very easy to change information about your corporate registration. 

So they could change the address, for example, for an LLC or corporation and then it makes it that much easier for them to get mail. And then use your identity to purchase things. Well, a lot of business owners I talk to don't even know that business credit is a thing. They certainly are not aware that business identity theft is a problem and a growing problem.

Tiffany (09:59)

And do you have a sense of what the biggest risk is that business owners face in terms of having their identity stolen?

Gerri (10:08)

Well, there's a number of different types of variations this fraud can take and one is intercepted IRS returns. So some will file a tax return in the name of your business and if there's a refund available — or they'll usually combine business and personal, right — and then deflate the business numbers to get a bigger refund, for example. So they often tie it together in that case. 

They can also open accounts in the name of the business and then have packages shipped — and then they steal the goods that are in these packages. So this was not my first brush with fraud. About, I don't know, maybe eight years ago or so someone had compromised my credit card and I got a call from my card issuer and it turns out that they had bought a bunch of expensive sneakers. 

And they were on a truck somewhere to be delivered to someone's apartment. And that was halted but that's the same kind of thing they will do with business identity — to order a bunch of goods that they plan to resell. 

So an example is that I read about a business where someone noticed that there were packages coming from a business that had left the premises. And so the business wasn't even active anymore, but someone had compromised that business identity and then was ordering goods and then they'll take those goods and sell them. So that's another variation of this. 

But some of the fraud is big and very sophisticated. So another example is Andy Pham, who I had interviewed, and he had a multi-million dollar property stolen from underneath him. Basically, the crooks changed the address with the Secretary of State, filed fraudulent documents to sell the property. He didn't even know about it. And he spent years and lots and lots of money trying to get that property back.

They can range from something small like my situation where I was in — a couple of accounts they tried to open, they didn't really get anything out of it — to someone who loses a multi-million dollar property or even their business because the crooks are sophisticated and act quickly.

Tiffany (12:34)

Wow, that is really surprising. I cannot believe that people have ways of figuring things like that out. That's awful.

Gerri (12:44)

Yeah, and again, I just want to emphasize it can happen to both active and inactive businesses. So I think you figure you close your business, you're moved on to something else, which happens, right? And then two years later, you're finding out that your business is being sued for these debts that you didn't even know existed. 

It's just another reminder that monitoring credit is really important. It's one of the few steps on the business credit side that can at least help alert you to unusual activities so you can act quickly.

Tiffany (13:21)

And how would you recommend people monitor their business credit? You already kind of talked about Nav, but...

Gerri (13:26)

Yeah, I'm going to be completely selfish and say Nav for definitely for business credit. Now on the personal credit side, you do have the right under federal law to check your credit reports, your consumer credit reports. 

Annualcreditreport.com is the federally mandated free credit report website. And during the pandemic, they went to free weekly updates. And that's still at least at this moment still available. So it's not just once a year. something you can monitor. It doesn't give you credit scores, though. 

So we've also at Nav, I've written an article about lots and lots of places where you can get your personal credit scores for free. You may get it through your credit card issuer, through your bank or credit union and other organizations that provide free credit scores. 

When it comes to business credit, Nav is — in my view, having worked with Nav over the past decade — the most comprehensive source for checking and managing and monitoring your business credit because you can see your credit from multiple credit bureaus, not just one. And then you can log in each month and see what's changed, as well as get alerts. But I also recommend logging in and seeing what's changed. Then if you notice something that you don't recognize and a new balance that looks way out of whack — a new account that you don't recognize, an inquiry that you don't recognize — then that means you want to dig a little deeper.

Tiffany (14:53)

Yeah, and the hard thing with that is that if you have an account on your business credit report, it's not going to say like Citibank, for example, because the business bureaus don't provide us with that.

Gerri (15:06)

Yes, correct. So in my case, I was very lucky that there was a credit check on my personal credit. And it was a business lender, though. So I knew who they were. And I knew they don't extend consumer credit. So I was able to track that down. And then there was this second inquiry that I was able to track down. 

So one of the things that we hear a lot at Nav from business owners is they don't want their personal credit checked. On the other hand, those personal credit checks can give them really valuable information, right? So I guess there's pros and cons to it, but it can be helpful information. 

The other thing I want to emphasize is that if you're not checking your credit with all three of the major consumer credit bureaus or multiple business credit bureaus, you may miss it. Those inquiries that showed up on my credit report and show and alerted me to this fraud were not on multiple credit reports. They were on one, right? So if I wasn't looking at that one, I wouldn't have known.

And I sometimes hear that from people that say “Well, yeah, I'm monitoring my you know, whatever X credit report.” But if you're not monitoring all three, you don't have the full picture of what might be going on. And then the other one that always flabbergasts me is the folks who say “Well, I pay my bills on time. I have good credit. I don't need to check my credit.”

Gosh, that's like you are the ideal target for an identity theft because you probably could get approved for really high credit limits. So if anyone should be checking, it's probably you because, yeah, they want your credit score.

Tiffany (16:50)

Yeah, that makes sense. Then so on the personal side, freezing is your best protection or are there other things you can do?

Gerri (16:59)

Yeah, you can either place fraud alerts, which tell the creditor to dig deeper, call you, contact you and, you know, alert you.

Or you can place a freeze, which freezes your credit for most new credit. Existing creditors can still check your credit. I caution people with credit freezes that you really have to be a little bit organized because you've got to keep the information that you need to unfreeze your credit file. And so I use a password manager, but I know a lot of people don't. 

And so you have to keep the information you need to unfreeze or unlock your file when you want to get credit. And if you don't keep that handier, then you're gonna get frustrated and you might, I don't know, might give up or might not take any. So a fraud alert is better than nothing. And a freeze will definitely kind of lock down your credit to most new applications. It's not completely foolproof, but it's the best we have right now.

Tiffany (18:01)

Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I've been in places and been like, whoops, I need to unfreeze this, but. Yes, yes, yeah. It's not too difficult, but yeah, it's definitely a consideration. Okay, so tell us about your business. Let's switch gears here, because I think you have a really interesting story. Just tell us about your business and what you do and how you launched out on your own.

Gerri (18:29)

Yeah, I've been in the credit field for a long, long time. started a nonprofit in Washington, DC and got to work on some of the legislation that gave us free credit reports in the first place, free credit scores, that kind of thing. So a lot of fun, great, great experience. 

And then after I left that organization, I went out on my own and with consulting clients ranging from major card issuers to organizations that wanted to help their members or their customers. So then I ended up getting recruited to work full-time at Credit.com and from there I ended up at Nav.

And I'll tell you real quick the story of how I ended up at Nav because I was working with small business attorney Garrett Sutton. He's written loads of books about corporations and business structures and everything. He was on Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad team for many, many years. And we were writing a book about business credit and business financing. And in the course of researching that book, someone connected me to Levi King, who was then founding a small company called Creditera. And it turned into Nav. But when he told me what they were doing, I mean, I literally can distinctly remember where I was sitting in my office.

I talked to him and thought, this is so cool. I love what they're doing. And he was telling me how they wanted to open up business credit to entrepreneurs, because at the time, the only access was either the credit bureaus, which can be expensive.

Or often very, very expensive credit coaching programs. And we're talking thousands of dollars. So he was bridging the gap, sort of like Credit Karma did for consumer credit, right? And I thought that was really exciting. So long story short, I ended up with a job at Nav. So I worked as an employee at Nav for almost seven years through the pandemic, through all the craziness of that time, and felt really good about helping so many entrepreneurs. And then I did want to work outside the US. And so to do that, I needed to step back into a consulting role, which I do now. And I have some other clients in this space. And I still am still interested and excited about credit education, whether it's for consumers or small business owners. And ultimately, small business owners are consumers too. So it's a strong overlap.

Tiffany (20:53)

Yeah, definitely. So we've talked to other small business owners who say that one of their biggest goals in starting a small business was to have time freedom. Do you feel like as a consultant that has happened for you, to have more freedom with your time?

Gerri (21:10)

I do feel I have a lot of time flexibility. So I still work a lot, but I work when it works for me. so that's one thing that was always a goal for me in my small business. And also the other goal was just the flexibility to do work I found interesting. So, you know, find things that I want to talk or write about. I had my own radio show for almost four years. And just doing those kinds of projects that really, I don't know, scratch that itch is a lot of fun and something you may or may not be able to do at your job just depending on the limitations and constraints of where you work.

Tiffany (21:54)

Yeah, definitely. And then what are some challenges of having that sort of freedom, but maybe more responsibility?

Gerri (22:01)

So many challenges. So health insurance is a huge one when you're self-employed health insurance is nightmare It's so expensive if you have a partner or spouse who's working you might be able to work on that You might build a Cobra for up to 18 months, but yeah, it's just it's dreadful So that's a really big one. 

Another one is bookkeeping. I hate it. I've sort of made peace with that. I still do my own bookkeeping because I don't feel like it's that big and enough. And I like to sort of stay on top of what's coming in and out, right? Because then I could say, wait, I have way too many subscriptions right now. I need to cut those back, right? These are tools I might buy a course for this or a course for that or whatever. Learn about this. So I kind of like that. 

But bookkeeping is also dreadful, I would say. And which is interesting, because I'm in the financial field. I don't really like numbers. I'll be honest with you, Tiffany. I don't love them. No, I got into this.

Tiffany (23:00)

It's so common.

Gerri (23:04)

So common.

And then I would say getting paid can also be very challenging. I have a couple of experiences. One, I worked for a very large Fortune 500 company, paid very well for a while as a client, of course, but gosh, it took a long time to pay. And I was sitting there thinking, well, you expect me to pay my credit card every 30 days. You're taking 90 days to pay me. This just doesn't feel right. 

And then I had another situation where I got in with a business partner on a project and he never paid me and I lost over at least 40 grand on that project. And so that was really painful. was a very painful lesson. And the lesson that I took away is that — and this is what I say to entrepreneurs — is when you're doing something, you're not getting paid upfront, you are lending. Like you're a lender. And I lent my knowledge, my IP, my creative talents to this project and I didn't get paid. So at the minimum, I should have vetted this partner better. And we should have had a system where the money was perhaps going into a joint account or something besides just coming to him and then him paying me.

I never saw a penny of that money. So those are a couple of things that I see business owners experience. Cash flow troubles are real. And when it's only you, you got to keep bringing in the cash or the business doesn't survive.

Tiffany (24:39)

Yeah, I know. Cash flow is huge. Yeah, it's just a massive struggle. Going back, so we want to pick your brain a little bit about business credit just because you're here and you know so much. So what are the top three tips you would give business owners looking to build business credit?

Gerri (25:07)

Just like I said, so many people tell me, “I have good credit, I pay my bills, I don't need to worry about my credit.” The same sort of scenario happens with business credit where I'll talk to business owners and, “I don't really need to worry about business credit. I pay my bills on time.” 

And then they go to Nav, they try to check their business credit, and they discover, I don't have much business credit. I may have a low business credit score, not because I've done anything wrong, but because I haven't really established accounts or relationships with companies that report to business credit. So one of the things I do say is, you know, this is something you want to look at early on, rather than waiting until you absolutely need it. Just like if you waited until you found that dream house and needed to get a mortgage to check your credit, it's not ideal, right? Same thing with business. If you're a business, it could be something really good happens. You know, it takes off.

And then you need to get some financing to hire more staff. I remember talking to one woman she was a Nav customer and she landed a very lucrative contract for her janitorial business. It was a government contract, but the government requires a surety bond. And so she had to go out and get this expensive bond. And she was, she was like, I don't know how I'm going to be able to afford this. Like, I don't know how to do this because I don't have the money coming in yet. 

So it can be a very, very chicken or egg thing. Going back to the advice, the advice is to start this process sooner rather than later. Don't wait until you're desperate. The other advice would be, like me, with that business partner, if you are going to, and so many people decide they want to go in with a business partner, and whether it's a project like me or whether it's a full-fledged business, you have to talk about credit. Because lenders will check.

Personal credit on all the business owners in many scenarios if it's an SBA loan or a bank loan You can bet they're gonna check it on you and your business partner. I was in a workshop with a group of bankers sitting in front of the you know in front of the room and an entrepreneur stood up and he said, “Hey, you know, my business partner doesn't have good credit, but I do. Can we get a bank loan that ignores his bad credit?” And every single one of those bankers said, “We are going to check both your credit, you know, personal credit.”

It is important. It's that conversation you have to have that's very uncomfortable. But if you're going go into business with someone, you just got to have it, right? It's just, it is what it is. Because if you don't, it could come back to really bite you. 

And then the third one is just monitor your credit. It doesn't have to take a ton of time. It literally could be something you do when you're checking your monthly bookkeeping or paying your bills each month or whatever it is that you do. You just trigger yourself, hey, I'm going to check my business credit, see what's going on, see if I'm making progress, see if anything surprising has cropped up. And then each month you do that. And that alone is more than most business owners are doing. And so from that standpoint, you're already kind of ahead of the game.

Tiffany (28:29)

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I think what we've heard is that personal credit is becoming a little bit more impactful on businesses these days because of, you know, the economy, probably.

Gerri (28:43)

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of economic uncertainty right now, and that translates to lenders too. And I get the sense, I think business owners feel like it's personal. Well, it is, right? It's personal credit. But looking from the lender's standpoint, I've talked to credit managers who have told me about the types of fraud that can occur if they aren't careful vetting their customers. 

So something as simple as getting net 30 terms with a supplier. I talked to one supplier who told me, know, we have to be really careful because we've had people apply for supplier credit, get it, get a shipment of merchandise, never pay for it, and then we discover it's being sold on the secondary market, right? So they're just trying to get merchandise to resell. The other is money laundering. 

So that is a huge concern for many vendors and lenders. And it's so easy in the US to start a business that unfortunately, that also attracts crooks who want to launder money through a business. And so they have to be careful about that because they don't want to get caught up in that either. I understand the, “I want to get away from personal credit,” and that is a great goal. But also keep in mind that these two, they run in tandem often. And if your personal credit is strong, your business credit is strong, you're in a much better position to get what your business needs next.

Tiffany (30:18)

Yeah, that makes sense. Can you talk through net-30s real quick, just for people who either aren't familiar with what they are or who don't know where to get them?

Gerri (30:25)

Sure.

Sure, so net-30 is just a term that's often used in the supplier credit world. Let's say I have a business, I'm wholesaling something and my customers, let's say they're restaurants, I might let them get, my wine or my ingredients or my pots and pans, whatever, and pay for them later. 

So the idea is that I supply you with what you need to manufacture or make your product or service, sell it, and then pay me out of cash flow. And net-30 refers to allowing you to pay me in 30 days, so that net-30 terms. Now some businesses offer net-10, net-15. There's no set number, but net-30 is kind of a common sort of goal to get to that.

In the beginning, some of your suppliers might start you off with net-10, net-15, and then you get longer terms. Now, if you build really strong business credit and a good relationship, you might be able to even get net-60 or net-90 terms for certain things. That just depends on the type of business you're in. But it's very, very common in the business credit world and in certain industries to have these kinds of relationships. 

And so for you as a business owner, the ideal scenario is where those net-30 companies — the vendors or suppliers that you're dealing with — report your payments to business credit. Because that adds what's called a trade line to your business credit. that accounts that appear on your credit reports are how you build credit. Whether it's personal or business credit.

They can only predict how you're going to pay in the future by looking at what you've done in the past. And so they look at your current and past accounts and say, did you pay on time? And if so, that helps you create a strong credit score for future loans and financing.

Tiffany (32:25)

What's the best way to find out where these net-30s do report?

Gerri (32:29)

So you have to talk to them or use a resource like Nav. We have a net-30 list that we update quite frequently at a net-30 marketplace. I'm sure we can probably include a link, but it's on the Nav blog. And also if you are using Nav, you'll find it in your account. And that will help you find net-30 accounts that report.

Some vendor and trade credit is going to be very specific to your industry, right? So you could be in a very niche industry where you need certain types of trade credit. In that case, you might be able to find out about it from your trade association or from other business owners, you know, in your same space. But when that does happen, you might want to talk to the vendor or supplier and find out if they report to business credit because not all of them do. And they don't all report to all the business credit bureaus.

Tiffany (33:32)

Yeah, that's great advice. Yeah, our net-30 marketplace is pretty new and it's logged in, but you can access it with a free account. Yeah.

Gerri (33:43)

And I would say, although it's new, we've been writing about this for a long time. And we've looked at a lot of net-30 options that are available to small business owners because we know this is a very popular way for people to get started. Because one of the nice things about many of these accounts, not all of them, but many of them, is they don't check personal credit. They don't report to personal credit. 

What can happen if you find the right fit is that you can start building your business credit even if you're working on your personal credit. So even if your personal credit isn't great, that doesn't necessarily have to stop you from building business credit.

Tiffany (34:24)

Yeah, that's great advice. That's fantastic. So do you have any final words of wisdom? I mean, you've shared a million, but any final thoughts to send our small business owners off with?

Gerri (34:37)

Yeah, so as someone who has seen Nav from almost the beginning of the journey, I'm really proud of what Nav has done to help small business owners. There's a real passion there to help business owners navigate this. Business credit is confusing. I'm just going to be upfront about it. It can be very confusing. 

On the other hand, with tools like Nav, you can start to make sense of it and you can put your business on a better track. So you don't have to go through all the pain and agony, losing $40,000 like I did. I wish I had checked business credit on that partner before I had done that. that hopefully will help you avoid some of these bigger problems. And also, like I said, monitor your business credit. So if someone does get into your business credit, hopefully go find out quickly, and you can act quickly and shut things down before they get too bad.

Tiffany (35:33)

Yes, that is important for all of us, even with just our personal credit. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been really, really helpful.

Gerri (35:42)

My pleasure, thank you.

Tiffany (35:44)

Thank you to our guests for sharing their story and thank you for listening today. Keep in mind that every small business is unique and there is no such thing as one size fits all advice, so take only what you find helpful. We look forward to next time.